Why the true currency of power is about who you uplift, with Paula Moreno

"When you understand the power game, you understand that you are not so critical for politicians," says former Colombian minister and founder of Manos Visibles, Paula Moreno on The Web of Us. In conversation with Claire Wathen, Paula explores the importance of creating inclusive spaces, why navigating power dynamics is about realizing that power is found within, and how she's built one of the biggest networks in South America for marginalized communities. 

Transcript

[00:00:00] Paula Moreno: When you understand the power game, you understand that you are not so critical for politicians. 

[00:00:10] Claire Wathen: Welcome to the web of us where we explore the visible and invisible connections that shape our world. I'm your host, Claire Wathen. In today's episode, we're diving into two of the core tensions in building networks power and inclusion.

[00:00:25] Claire Wathen: Who's in charge and who gets a seat at the table to unpack these complex [00:00:30] dynamics? I couldn't think of a better person to speak with than Paula Moreno, the first Afro Colombian woman and youngest woman ever to hold a cabinet position in Colombia. I. Now a social impact founder, Paula is dedicated to empowering communities and fostering leaders committed to creating meaningful change.

[00:00:49] Claire Wathen: Her work over the last 15 years has made invisible communities visible in policy, helps strengthen organizations in Columbia and the broader region, [00:01:00] and created networks that embrace indigenous wisdom and collective agency. In our conversation, we. Discuss what government global philanthropy and activism have in common.

[00:01:12] Claire Wathen: It might surprise you what we really mean when we talk about power and how making invisible visible is both a radical and unnecessary act in our world today on why inclusive networks go faster and further than exclusive ones. [00:01:30] Here's Paula Moreno. Welcome to the Web of us. Paula, it's wonderful to have you here.

[00:01:36] Paula Moreno: It's so meaningful and beautiful to be here with you and have this opportunity to talk and reflect together. 

[00:01:44] Claire Wathen: Yeah, I was thinking back to when we first met in Bogota years ago, our. Our mutual, dear friend, Graciela connected us and she was telling me about your work and the types of spaces that you've navigated, and I just remember her saying, [00:02:00] I can't believe you haven't met yet, and, and maybe you have in a past life, but I have no doubt that you'll find so many synergies to connect with.

[00:02:06] Claire Wathen: So I'm, I'm thrilled years later to be here and to explore your journey and perspective. You've had a fascinating set of experiences from. Being the Minister of Culture in Columbia to founding a nonprofit organization, Monas Ize, serving as an advisor to global institutions and [00:02:30] moving through philanthropic and governmental agencies as well.

[00:02:34] Claire Wathen: And I'm really curious to step back into those key moments and think about what led from one to another and perhaps setting those specific hats aside. You know, thinking really as. Your perspective, your view of the world and what we might learn about that. But before we dive in, I would really love to introduce you to our listeners, and I have a couple light questions about [00:03:00] who you are and hope to bring in some things that maybe aren't on your formal biographies.

[00:03:06] Claire Wathen: So first and foremost, I'm curious, where do you call home? 

[00:03:11] Paula Moreno: You know, there, there is this traditional saying that home is where your heart is. And, um. And I feel my heart. It's in so many places. It's, of course Colombia has been my place, my roots, my country, and I feel it so deeply. But I have been a world dealer.

[00:03:29] Paula Moreno: I have been [00:03:30] around the world and I have part of my heart in Brazil. I have part of my heart in the us I. I have part of my heart in Europe as well. I mean, and in the continent. I have been in Africa, in Mali, in Mozambique, in Senegal, and when I go to all these places, I meet family. So my heart is in different places for many reasons, because I have been around and I speak several languages.

[00:03:54] Paula Moreno: I speak Italian, I speak, uh, Portuguese, and I speak English. And I speak Spanish, a little [00:04:00] bit of French. So many homes, 

[00:04:02] Claire Wathen: many homes. As you've moved through different leadership roles, what's something that has been a practice for you that has helped keep you grounded, um, has helped you take care of yourself?

[00:04:13] Paula Moreno: Going to the sea. The sea always cleans my soul, my heart, my, you know, I sit on the beach. And all the things, all the pains or the high moments I have had like victories, I just give it to the sea. Not [00:04:30] just the painful moments, but also like the moments that I feel that everything is successful, that they are so big.

[00:04:38] Paula Moreno: I, I, I just sit, sit down, and which is each wave I start saying, it doesn't belong to me. Thank you. It doesn't belong to me and I want to feel myself empty and, and yeah, I celebrate the learnings and the victories and everything, but at the same time I want to realize that it is not mine [00:05:00] anymore. And you take it, you immense Big C.

[00:05:04] Paula Moreno: You just take it. And for me, that moment of healing a couple of days on the beach are key. Those moments are key for me. 

[00:05:13] Claire Wathen: Hmm. That's a beautiful visual. And the, the constant flow between one and the other, it's never static. Um, there's so many beautiful parts of that metaphor. Um, if you could go back to speak with yourself, your 25-year-old self, let's [00:05:30] say, um, what advice would you give her?

[00:05:33] Claire Wathen: What would you tell young Paula? Don't worry. 

[00:05:37] Paula Moreno: You 

[00:05:37] Claire Wathen: know? Oh, just 

[00:05:39] Paula Moreno: that I, I don't worry. Yes. Because I feel that at 25 I took everything so inten with such a level of intensity. Mm-hmm. You know, even with my parents, with the things that I wanted to do, I put so much energy and I felt that everything was, you know, now never, or never, or, you know, I, I, and I [00:06:00] can, I would say just breathe and it is a long run and.

[00:06:05] Paula Moreno: You are marvelous. And also, you know, I will give myself so much credit, you know, if I was 25 to say, you have been marvelous. Mm, you are marvelous. And, and don't worry and be with yourself. Be easy with the people around you, even if you have complex relationships and love them, but also [00:06:30] take distance when you need.

[00:06:31] Paula Moreno: Don't worry because sometimes we believe that we control. I feel that 25, I still fell that I control mm-hmm. Things. Mm-hmm. But, and now I realize that. Most of the things I don't 

[00:06:44] Claire Wathen: control. 

[00:06:46] Paula Moreno: Yes. I don't, I, I, I, I can't pretend, but most of the things I, I just try and maybe yes, maybe not. And, and even if it's not, there is not a big deal.

[00:06:57] Paula Moreno: No. That 25 I fell. [00:07:00] It was like the end of the world. Yeah. 

[00:07:03] Claire Wathen: Yeah. Well, that's beautiful advice for all of us at all ages, that you are marvelous and it's okay. Uh, not to worry. That's a nice segue into your journey. I'm, I'm so curious to take a step back with you and think about how one thing led to another.

[00:07:21] Claire Wathen: I think we often tell the stories of our career in a bit of a linear sequential, you know, very tight arc to explain to someone in the current [00:07:30] moment how we got where we are. You of course, made history as. The first Afro-Colombian woman and the youngest to hold a cabinet position in Columbia. Can you take us back to that?

[00:07:41] Claire Wathen: Uh, what initially drew you to public service and how did you find navigating the role in the space? And was it something you expected or did it emerge? 

[00:07:52] Paula Moreno: Yeah, I, you know, that's a question that I have that had been passed so many times that, um, and I wasn't looking [00:08:00] for that. I was 27, even when the opportunity came.

[00:08:03] Paula Moreno: I remember I called one of my mentors at Oxford University, Malcolm D. And I, I was like, they, they asked me this. Do you think that, that I'm, I'm ready for this. Do you, do you actually think that I'm, you know, you know the president, you know all the ministers. Do you actually think that I'm the one? And we have a very deep connection and much love, and he was proud.

[00:08:26] Paula Moreno: I'm, you are more than prepared. I, I have no doubt. And that [00:08:30] this old professor from Oxford who knew all the elites, said that to me. He gave me all the trust and, and particularly when he, he said that, I also remember that for me, the important thing was the opportunity of service, of serving. Not the, you know, kind of the, the position and, and being a minister or mm-hmm.

[00:08:56] Paula Moreno: You know. But really the service and the [00:09:00] opportunity, I have to bring my vision to different spaces, and I think that has been my journey. Uh. Of this 20 years, I'm working on racial equality, territorial equality, cultural empowerment in so many places. I, I see that it's not several positions, but a journey and that I choose in different moments strategically, because I'm very strategic.

[00:09:24] Paula Moreno: How can I really make a contribution? For me, that's the key. 

[00:09:28] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:29] Paula Moreno: And, and [00:09:30] the public service was very challenging. That's why I took 10 years to write my memoir that will be publishing English this year. But, uh, I wrote my memoir, the Power of the Invisible, because I felt that it was, it took so much of my life, of my energy and, and having much power demands so much from you.

[00:09:52] Paula Moreno: Hmm. And in terms of playing the power game in, um, a strategic way to be able to build a legacy. 

[00:09:59] Claire Wathen: [00:10:00] Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:00] Paula Moreno: Because the key is that. 

[00:10:02] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. And when you say power game, I'm curious if there's a specific example or, um, you know, power is. It means many things and is I think used in many ways. So I'm curious to see how you think about power and then specifically in this context.

[00:10:19] Paula Moreno: Yes, of course. When you are a minister, you have to deal with so many powers. I didn't belong to a political party. I was working to with the US Embassy, with international corporation, more in [00:10:30] that sector and in the academy. But I wasn't belonged to a political party. So for me was realizing coming to a political space.

[00:10:38] Paula Moreno: How the political negotiation, the political roles, um, and of course I was, I was chosen because I was a black woman in Columbia. You never had a black woman. And the Congressional Black Caucus just said, I. You know, we need to see people like us because you have 10 million black people in government in, in Colombia, so mm-hmm.

[00:10:57] Paula Moreno: Where, where are, where are these people play, uh, [00:11:00] performing power? What, why is this? And so I came from a very unusual way because I didn't belong to a political power political party or a political negotiation nationally, but, but more internationally. And that was different. And also I came when I was 27, 28 years old.

[00:11:18] Paula Moreno: Um, I was very young. I worked as a consultant, you know, I studied industrial engineering, so I, I really value my career. I have never been in the. Private sector or, uh, in [00:11:30] an industry. But my career is very system oriented. Mm. Mm-hmm. So I was able to organize a ministry. I was able to manage a ministry. A ministry, but also to develop a vision that I could execute.

[00:11:43] Paula Moreno: Mm-hmm. And find a way to execute in a very strategic way. But it was very complex because, uh, when you were asking me about the power Yeah. Because you need to deal with the Congress, you need to deal with the. All the, the state you need to, the media that I was so afraid of and [00:12:00] was treating me very nasty at the beginning and the cultural sector, because I wasn't a cultural expert.

[00:12:06] Paula Moreno: And people were like, what is going to know why she, she was appointed and she doesn't know anything about culture. Mm-hmm. And you know, like the cultural sector was like, is this girl that this black girl that you know is, and so it was very complex to manage all that. But also to build my strategy to navigate and to be able to stay there.

[00:12:28] Paula Moreno: The whole government [00:12:30] period, because I was there three years and a half. 

[00:12:32] Claire Wathen: And across the three and a half years, did you sense momentum at certain points, or how did you see the vision setting process and then implementing and once the appointment was concluded? 

[00:12:47] Paula Moreno: Yeah, I remember that the president announced that, uh, let's say at the middle of May.

[00:12:53] Paula Moreno: And I'd say, I need two weeks to organize the whole thing, to find the teams that I need. I need 25 people to [00:13:00] come with me. I need my lawyers, I need this, I need that. Do you agree? I mean, I don't have anything against the people that you have appointed, but I need my space and my people surrounding me and I need to organize this.

[00:13:12] Paula Moreno: So I organized, you know, a management approach that was, uh, Columbia diversity, uh, culture from all culture for all. And I wrote the conceptual document saying, because of course I knew that people were like, no, she's just going to work for black people. She's black, she's going to [00:13:30] work for blacks, and that's it.

[00:13:31] Paula Moreno: And I was like, no, no, it's not a revenge. It's not a, you know, we are not here particularly, we want to show that diversity is for everyone and it's necessary in this country to understand each other. And also if some part of us do not grow. We will have the conflict that we have had in the last decades.

[00:13:51] Paula Moreno: It's not like a matter of me being black and you widen. It's not a matter of that. It's, we need all, and there are some voices that haven't had that [00:14:00] same level of access to this, but it doesn't mean that I will put everything aside and just focus on one thing. No, there is a space for all. So I build that concept, and that was very important the first day that I arrived because the team already knew what my agenda was, and I have a strategy for developing that agenda.

[00:14:20] Paula Moreno: Hmm. So I think that that, and also the team, because of course I. I, I knew I, I was coming like a football game if I didn't have a good team and that [00:14:30] was stronger than me in some areas that I wasn't mm-hmm. Then I knew I will not be successful, and I really had the opportunity to meet even EE every evening I met with the, with the team at my apartment, you know, from seven to nine, like, okay.

[00:14:47] Paula Moreno: Why are going, what are we thinking? Yeah. You know, the first day we need to be clear and we need to be a team. Mm-hmm. Not a single person that I appointed. No. The 25 of us, we come together. [00:15:00] So I feel that these two weeks were key for me because once you are appointed and once you start, then you don't have time to think.

[00:15:08] Paula Moreno: Yeah. Yeah. No. And there are so many surprises. And in a country like Columbia, every day, so many distractions, so many surprises, so many things. Yeah. And everything seems important. So if you don't have a vision, then you get lost. So for me, that was key. 

[00:15:23] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. Do you see vision as, I mean, I've always seen how you are able to [00:15:30] find the signal amidst the noise.

[00:15:32] Claire Wathen: Um, I think that's something, you've described it as strategic. I, I've seen that across a number of. Spaces that you've navigated. Um, I'm curious, like how do you stay focused and do you adapt the vision as things shift? How do you navigate when so many things are shifting around you? 

[00:15:51] Paula Moreno: You know, I think that's the power of negotiation to a mayor's stand and to know why you are there.

[00:15:58] Paula Moreno: Why you are there. In my [00:16:00] case, I, I knew that I bring this diversity perspective. In a country, very complex, and I negotiate that from the interview with the president. I say, okay, my approach is diversity, generational, racial territorial diversity. I mean, I have all these combinations, gender diversity, that, so do you agree?

[00:16:22] Paula Moreno: Do we share? Share that perspective and you will allow me to develop that. And I felt that, I don't know if he [00:16:30] really thought through all the things that I was going to make, you know, but he was like, yes, Paula, for sure. And I was like, okay, so right. I'll take it. And he told me his perspective and he said, Paula, for me, these priorities are this.

[00:16:45] Paula Moreno: And I was like, yeah, you know, the coverage of this cultural services and all that, and the music national plan and this. I was like, okay, so we agree on this, but. Let me know that I can develop my vision and [00:17:00] that's my vision. Mm-hmm. And from the first day And what you were saying in terms of, to be honest, I had the opportunity to develop, not just in the ministry, but invisible hands, my vision.

[00:17:10] Paula Moreno: Mm-hmm. Because I was clear the historical role and the legacy that I was building, not just a position that I'm a mentor of many people in the world around the world, and one of the things that I'm telling them is. You don't feel that you need to hold this position because it won't last forever. It would be maybe you [00:17:30] work one month, maybe one year, maybe two if you are lucky, four, but you, that's not yours.

[00:17:37] Paula Moreno: The service can be yours. The service, the transformation of other people's lives, the opportunity you build that would be forever with you. But the position and the power game and the government that would disappear. Mm. And maybe it go, well, maybe it goes wrong. But when you have done something, then you can move on to [00:18:00] another, to another space and to another scenario in your life.

[00:18:04] Claire Wathen: That's a powerful, grounded perspective to have and that you don't need to attach so deeply to one title or one place, one organization. It's something that, um. I've seen a lot across the social change space is this personal conflation with identity and you are your work, you are your organization and, and the, the challenges that that brings to mental health, to [00:18:30] wellbeing more generally.

[00:18:31] Claire Wathen: And that ultimately what you're describing. It allows you to move through. There are seasons, there are chapters, there are moments where you are the person to step into that role, to that service, and then that time passes and you another door opens. And to be open to that, uh, it's really powerful. 

[00:18:51] Paula Moreno: And I think Claire also coming to your previous question about the power game.

[00:18:56] Claire Wathen: Hmm. 

[00:18:56] Paula Moreno: When you understand the power game, you understand that [00:19:00] you are not so critical for politicians. You know, I mean that, that if in a year maybe they need someone else mm-hmm. They would call someone else. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So if you put all your energy and you are attached to that, that you feel that is the end of your life or everything, or maybe you start to doing things, you know, with the time, with many of the people that I have mentored, I, I'm really missing something because they try to get.

[00:19:26] Paula Moreno: It, the approval of the leader, of the political [00:19:30] leader and then change so much the agenda, what you were asking. 

[00:19:34] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:34] Paula Moreno: But at the end, that's not the, the, the thing that will make you last more like being next to this person more, or make this person change their opinion about you if they need to, your position for other reason, even if you have been trying to please them, they'll change you.

[00:19:52] Paula Moreno: Mm-hmm. So at least that you have done something that you wanted to do. 

[00:19:57] Claire Wathen: Well, and it speaks to values and [00:20:00] you know, what, what is in your focus for you to contribute and how does that then come through in the work that you do and the leadership roles tactically that you take. And, you know, coming through your role as minister, you founded Blace, which, um.

[00:20:18] Claire Wathen: From the outside looks like a, a beautiful continuation of your vision around visibility and inclusion. And I would love to hear, um, as you're coming up on 10 years of the [00:20:30] organization, 15 15 15, um, yes. Yeah. Curious how you think about that journey and, um, how the vision has evolved over that time. 

[00:20:41] Paula Moreno: You know, and coming back to another of our scenes in this conversation, I was on the beach.

[00:20:48] Claire Wathen: Hmm. 

[00:20:49] Paula Moreno: And I was saying, okay, I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted. I was sick. I have a surgery. I have so many personal complexities [00:21:00] during that time because I slept four hours a day because I have lost myself. Mm-hmm. And I couldn't find myself that Yeah. You know, hold myself together. So I remember in January I was on that beach and I was like, Paula and in AKA just moving 

[00:21:16] Claire Wathen: mm-hmm.

[00:21:16] Paula Moreno: Next to a beach. And I was like, Paula, what does it make you happy? Do you remember what makes you know what you need to do? Know what will save the world? Or, or save you not to be [00:21:30] fired, but what, what does it make you happy? I was like, Hmm, I don't want to be in these structures because it takes too much and I feel I have made a contribution.

[00:21:40] Paula Moreno: It was so useful, so important, and I took advantage of that opportunity and I did many programs and I one of the best ministry of the history of the country, so, and I opened a space for black people to, in positions of power, so. Uh, let's be clear. You were very good, you? Mm-hmm. I was on the top of the ministry of [00:22:00] the government.

[00:22:00] Paula Moreno: I didn't have any legal issues that many gov government officials had, so I was like, you have a very good balance. People like you, you feel, you know, and you are 31 and you deserve just to. And then when I was in this analysis, the new president later on, the new president called me and I was like, look, I don't feel it.

[00:22:21] Paula Moreno: I can't continue in the political saying. I know we have been, we were together at the government and I'm the only one that you are calling to continue [00:22:30] and I really value that, but I don't have the energy that you serve. Yeah. And I can, you know, and it's a great privilege, but I decide everything. So in that moment, I had applied for a scholarship at MIT to design visible Hands.

[00:22:45] Paula Moreno: And when I was on the beach, I was like, I want to create my own thing. I don't want to be in power Games. I just want to serve the people in a more meaningful and critical way and to get involved. Because when you are a, yeah, I couldn't launch a law and everything, [00:23:00] but I, I couldn't spend too much time in the process and I, I was missing that.

[00:23:05] Paula Moreno: To get involved with the communities, to be able to enjoy the process. And even if the scale was smaller, because of course when I was a minister, I could decide for what, 50 million people. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And yeah, but here it was. So I decided to design visual hands and to create, and to take that year the MIT to conceptually.

[00:23:28] Paula Moreno: Understand what I [00:23:30] wanted to do, why I wanted to do, and my main motivation was like I, I want, when I was in, I was thinking I want the next people that come that they don't feel so scared, so sad so many times, and that they are a miracle for this country. I want many visible hands. I want many people like me being visible and that they don't become the the first, the only the Because that's a lot.

[00:23:59] Claire Wathen: [00:24:00] Yeah, it is a lot. The pressure. Yeah, the weight of it. 

[00:24:02] Paula Moreno: Yeah. And I was like, I, I just want to change that because people believe that that's a norm. Oh, you were the first. No, that's a law because that builds, like, it's a miracle that you come to a space and it takes like your citizenship and right to be someone else in a position of power.

[00:24:21] Paula Moreno: And I was like, I want to help since I got inside the game and the government and how people think about us because also the [00:24:30] discrimination, the people. To mayor and also believe, like, no, she's, she's black, but she's not that black because she, she went to Cambridge, she's at the government. She kind of had all, and I was like, no, I, I, I'm, no, no, no.

[00:24:45] Paula Moreno: Don't get confused. That's, but I, I wanted, no, I was like, part of my legacy in this life is that in this country, we, we are not a miracle. And that we are visible in this country with dignity and [00:25:00] that even become normal, that we are in any place. That is not an issue. Mm-hmm. It's not even a conversation.

[00:25:06] Claire Wathen: Yeah. 

[00:25:06] Paula Moreno: It's not even a conversation because it's normal. We are citizen and we are here. Okay. We're simply here. Yeah. You are simply here. It's not to make this a big deal. And I was like, I, I want to make that contribution that makes me happy. Working with young people makes me happy. Working with women, make me happy working, uh, outside power places make me happy.

[00:25:28] Paula Moreno: That's why I, I have really [00:25:30] focused in visible hands in the Pacific Coast where people. Don't care. They just, Hey, pita, how are you? And I'm like, great. There is no networking thing or you like, uh, any particular, you know? 

[00:25:43] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. Cards, business cards about 

[00:25:45] Paula Moreno: me. Yeah, the business cards. So it is like, pita, did you eat?

[00:25:49] Paula Moreno: And I'm like, yeah, no, I haven't. I'm hungry. Yeah. They're like, let's sit down and have a, how are you? And. S that humanity for me was critical [00:26:00] to build visible hands. You, you just come to the point to say, we are humans. We deserve love, care, nourishment. That is what we do in visible hands, and we also need to help this country to be more human.

[00:26:13] Paula Moreno: Mm-hmm. Through h, through our growth and through our presence and not realizing our presence in the united spaces. And I was like, that's what make me happy, that's what I want to do. And I want to have one year to develop the concept and then. You know, even if I don't, I will earn a [00:26:30] permanent salary and I will try to build it from scratch.

[00:26:34] Paula Moreno: Then I don't care. I just want to be free and mm-hmm. To develop my vision without spending so much time trying to navigate an organization. An institution. 

[00:26:43] Claire Wathen: Yeah. Yeah. And fast forward to today, it's an extraordinary network. I would love for you to share a little bit more about. The different facets of the, the organization and the team and how, how the organization looks today.

[00:26:59] Paula Moreno: Yeah, 

[00:26:59] Claire Wathen: we 

[00:26:59] Paula Moreno: [00:27:00] are, you know, it's, uh, Claire, I have been reflecting about that, um, because it's a generational change. 

[00:27:07] Claire Wathen: Hmm. 

[00:27:08] Paula Moreno: When I'm thinking that. Yeah, we developed training. We have developed almost 50 programs in these 15 years. We have been working with the nationally, internationally, building our networks, getting support.

[00:27:22] Paula Moreno: We have worked with Colombian traditional leads to train our leaders. I mean, there are so many levels because it has been, [00:27:30] um, a movement. We have built so many movements, cultural movement, musical movements, you know, economic movements. So many things, and I'm just. You know, I'm just realizing that it's a generational change because now we are in so many places.

[00:27:46] Paula Moreno: I mean, the visible hands are, you know, in the governments, local governments, national governments, I don't know how like 100 visible hands in the current government in the current even one was a minister in the previous government, we have another minister. [00:28:00] The Ministry of Culture was from Visible Hands.

[00:28:02] Claire Wathen: And so these are women who have gone through your programs and they're now 

[00:28:05] Paula Moreno: part this has. Yeah. And you know, the first program that we launched was called Pacific Power. Our language has always been like power, you know, like mm-hmm. Banger, you know, ethnic banger. I mean, we are always calling people, not about what we don't have, but what we had and then this country needs.

[00:28:27] Paula Moreno: Mm-hmm. And how we are, you know, developing our [00:28:30] leadership to better serve, serve the country. So how can we be better prepared because this country need us, even if sometimes it doesn't love us back, but it doesn't matter. We get prepared and we know this country need us, and we have developed a network of 28,000 people and, and.

[00:28:52] Paula Moreno: It. This network is so many places, I mean in the Andan bank or in so many universities and in so many places. [00:29:00] But it's also beautiful because we have developed in the last 10 years and international networks that even virtually come or personally come to train our leaders to exchange. And so we have been able to grow and even have, you know, have a network of black women in Brazil that have been AC company in the last 10 years.

[00:29:19] Paula Moreno: That have been their mentors and they have been developing programs here in Columbia because also we understand our from national power and solidarity. And many women had, [00:29:30] like you have been there also believing in this from an ethical perspective. 

[00:29:34] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:35] Paula Moreno: No. Mm-hmm. And seeing the importance of of, of these for our societies.

[00:29:40] Paula Moreno: And I feel that that has been very, and also with that we have helped to build 500 organizations. S 

[00:29:47] Claire Wathen: being, technology's extraordinary. It's extraordinary. You're moving quickly through these numbers, but 28,000 women across both Columbia, Brazil, Africa, globally, the [00:30:00] programs, the, the levels of leadership as well.

[00:30:03] Claire Wathen: Um, it's, you know, you, we started this conversation talking about how you were forging a path in government, but now there are many women there in government, um, representing as well as other industries. I. 

[00:30:16] Paula Moreno: No, it's beautiful. Claire. One of the beautiful things for me, even that generation is the most inspiring because even if I ask them about race, they're like, why?

[00:30:25] Paula Moreno: Why are you talking about, I have so many dreams for me. Even if people treat me in that way, [00:30:30] they don't. They don't own me. They don't. They own my dreams, they don't own my perspective. No, no, no. Let's talk about my future, where I want to say, and I was like, that's Marvel because. That's the word that we wanted to do.

[00:30:42] Paula Moreno: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:43] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. Talk about power. 

[00:30:44] Paula Moreno: Talk about power and people who, you know when, when you believe in you, when you know you have power. Mm-hmm. And that, and you don't give that power away. No. You don't give your mental health away. You don't give your, that, that become the center of your [00:31:00] life. No. Mm-hmm. And I remember one of them, I was interviewing her for a book and she's 12 years ago, and her name is Sweet Dulce.

[00:31:09] Paula Moreno: And she said, um, and I was like, why are the black women that you are admire? I was like, you know, Paula, my mother, that woman, I mean, I like you, but I don't admire you, you know? And I was like, girl, straight to the

[00:31:28] Paula Moreno: like, that's [00:31:30] marvelous. Mm. Because you know, your mother has been so brave, have built your future. So any of us who are kind of the famous black women, we don't. I mean, you are like, yeah, thank you. Thank you for you have done. And she was like, no, I, I'm grateful that you have done this work, but, and in the future, I don't want to do that work.

[00:31:49] Paula Moreno: I just, to be clear, I just want to be clear. I don't want to do that work. And I was like, God, this generation, and she's 12, they're here. I was like, [00:32:00] they're here. But also they won't allow anyone to corner them and say, your life purpose, your cause in life. It's just this one. 

[00:32:10] Claire Wathen: Yeah. It's, it's beyond a, a category as well.

[00:32:13] Claire Wathen: I think there's, I mean you, we've spoken about this in other. At other times over, uh, coffees. But it's so easy to put ourselves and other people into one category. You work in this industry, this issue area, this, uh, sector, you know, whatever [00:32:30] jargon we wanna use here that, oh, you have this background, that means you're qualified to do this type of work.

[00:32:34] Claire Wathen: And something I find inspiring about your journey and how you navigate is that there's always this piece of connection and culture. That your identity has space here, that there is room for you regardless of how you wanna describe yourself or how you wanna show up. And I'm curious, how do you think about, how do we create spaces for that, both individual identity and agency and also the [00:33:00] collective and what's possible when we create these connections and spaces?

[00:33:03] Paula Moreno: I think the human part that maybe seems so basic. No, because when we say human, it's like, but that's basic. But it's not that basic because Claire, like the first time that you and me connect or with grassy with other people, it was that human justice space. 

[00:33:23] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:23] Paula Moreno: That's it. That takes different shapes, different ways.

[00:33:28] Paula Moreno: But it's that human, you [00:33:30] know, I was in a meeting three weeks ago with our, one of our networks that are trans women in the Caribbean, and they were very, very concerned. They were very, and I was like, my connection with you is about the human part, and I love connecting with you through that. You know, it's, it's human, it's, it's not any other thing that connect that.

[00:33:54] Paula Moreno: And how as human, we don't naturalize [00:34:00] many injustice and unequal things in this world. That's the thing. So I feel that when you come to that point, given in terms of class, race, different orientations, it's the human part. Mm-hmm. Because it's not that you became a, you know, like an advocate of a particular noise recalling the humanity, all people, humanity.

[00:34:22] Paula Moreno: That maybe things very basic. It seems like a, 

[00:34:25] Claire Wathen: but it is too obvious. Yeah. I'm curious. [00:34:30] To talk a bit about how you are also straddling different geographies, different altitudes of, you know, working very closely with communities, weaving across communities, building these networks. You're also in international rooms of power and, you know, conversations with philanthropic funders and large banks and UN agencies.

[00:34:52] Claire Wathen: And, um, how do you. How do you think about both of those environments and or altitudes, so to [00:35:00] speak, and how, how do you see your role in being in both? You know, 

[00:35:04] Paula Moreno: sometimes it is, it's complex because, you know, one day I am with a sensor, a street seller in the Pacific coast, and the other day I am one of the wealthiest people in this world.

[00:35:18] Paula Moreno: And, but the human part, I try to bring the human part. Yeah. Even if you have a lot of ma or it seems that you have a lot because everything is so relative. [00:35:30] Mm-hmm. Or if you consider that you don't have enough, and I just come as a person, as a human being, valuing this human being that I'm interacting with and, and of course with the, you know, grassroots leader that I'm working, I'm seeing their power and that's why I'm spending their time with them.

[00:35:49] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:49] Paula Moreno: It's not that I'm not, I'm seeing their power. That I have been able to see materialize 10 years later. You know, a hiphop leader that [00:36:00] I knew 10 years later that he was like, why she foreign minister is talking to me, and now's one of the voices that determin many things in the government and many other thing spaces 

[00:36:11] Claire Wathen: amazing, you know?

[00:36:12] Claire Wathen: Yeah. And 

[00:36:12] Paula Moreno: there is a power there. Mm-hmm. As. And also there is a power in this P person that is very famous, that is in a board or is in another position. And also I have an intention with the interaction with this person, but for me, are the same people. For me, it's not like, you know, [00:36:30] and, and there are different levels of scarcity in different places in society.

[00:36:35] Paula Moreno: There is no, like, these are the poor that I never use that word, or these are the wealthy, there are different nevers. Mm-hmm. Different levels. So for me, and I remember one day, uh, there workers, the president for foundation said, Paula manage the grass tops and the grassroots. Mm-hmm. And I'm in those, in those worlds.

[00:36:53] Paula Moreno: And. And sometimes it's, it's difficult to bring the different perspective, you know, to the grassroots leaders, the [00:37:00] pragmatism of many of the powerful people that are more pragmatic in some ways, and, but to a mayor. And also the sensitivity, the value that you give to the, to the majority that are grassroots.

[00:37:14] Paula Moreno: And, and, and the knowledge and, and the courage and the way of dealing with complexity and being able to smile and not start and stop complaining every single day, even if things are critical. So I feel that that has [00:37:30] been a great privilege for me because first it have changed, shaped my humanity and, and shape my way of looking at people as people.

[00:37:41] Paula Moreno: And not being overwhelmed because this person has so much money or is famous or is friend of someone else or, mm-hmm. But this, I like this person, or I don't like this person. I think that we share values ethically, that person is interesting and even be confronting that person as well. 

[00:37:59] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. [00:38:00] And there's.

[00:38:00] Claire Wathen: Such an openness both to share as you do, but also to invite others in. I think that's something that regardless of what role you've, you've had or played formally or informally, that's something that is just very, um, that's part of who you are and how you show up in all of these spaces and, 

[00:38:18] Paula Moreno: but I feeling 15 years, I really dream that diversity is more natural, that we not need to work on that.

[00:38:26] Paula Moreno: That is not an issue that is more natural and I feel that [00:38:30] we have. We have seen so much progress in the last 20 years. Yeah. So much progress in the awareness, in the ethical clarity of many people that that cannot be taken away, you know? And that we need this to keep going and keep doing it and keep, but I feel that if we keep doing it, there is a moment where there is not this backlash and there is not this, because I think it will become natural and we realize that, you [00:39:00] know.

[00:39:00] Paula Moreno: People like me doesn't have to go their life for this because it's not anymore an issue. 

[00:39:04] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:39:05] Paula Moreno: And it's over because it should have been temporary. It is not meant to be permanent fight or cause or, you know, there is a moment where, mm-hmm. It needs to, it is not that permanent, otherwise it means that we didn't do the, the, the job.

[00:39:21] Paula Moreno: You know, if it doesn't move forward to some extent, it it, and we have devoted our lives to many of these things to move forward, then mm-hmm. [00:39:30] Something needs to change. And for me that will be my perfect, I dunno if, if 15 years we will be there, but with the new generations I'm seeing I'm very helpful.

[00:39:39] Paula Moreno: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That we would have even more people. With that pragmatism and clarity and maybe moving from talking to doing more. Yeah. To having more vision and executing more. 

[00:39:55] Claire Wathen: Hmm. I think it's, it's easy to say, but it, it also, you're shifting [00:40:00] culture just by doing that, by consistently showing up and inviting more people in and showing that it's not just you.

[00:40:06] Claire Wathen: You're not an outlier at this stage. You've been working and supporting and growing the environment where you're one of many, it's not something to do alone. It's really about how do we shift. What it means to all be involved in the societies that we have. 

[00:40:21] Paula Moreno: I've always said that to the leaders. Invisible hand.

[00:40:24] Paula Moreno: Invisible hands, and I tell them, I want you to do better and to be better even than [00:40:30] me. I put all my efforts for, you know, to see you even happier balance, you know, having fun because this it, it doesn't mean, I mean we are no, we are no heroes. We are just human beings. Serve with a service, with a purpose contributing in the different spaces that we are.

[00:40:51] Paula Moreno: But we need to, but also I, I want you, I want to see that in you. Mm-hmm. Because that wouldn't shine on me, know inside [00:41:00] me. Mm-hmm. And bring more light to my life as well. So I feel that for me, that's key. Mm-hmm. That is not me. It is that we are many, that we are many here. That we are many in the world.

[00:41:10] Paula Moreno: Yeah. And also one of the beautiful things, Claire, when we know amazing women, we know, we try always to connect to the others just to say, you know, we are many and mm-hmm we are. We need to be together and we need to be together. And that's beautiful and that's a huge power, and we need to feel so [00:41:30] proud because we share the values, you share the purpose, and we are there for each other with a very, with a spirit of service.

[00:41:39] Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:40] Paula Moreno: And I feel that's so, so meaningful and so beautiful. 

[00:41:44] Claire Wathen: I couldn't agree more. And I think both in exploring your journey and, and the wider perspective of what you're seeing in these different spaces, the, the lens of power and how that connects with each of us is something we [00:42:00] can all take away and, and think about as we operate and lead and manage and do the things that we do day to day.

[00:42:09] Claire Wathen: Um. And as you would say to your younger self, I'll just say back to you that you are marvelous and you are incredible. Thank you so much for joining today and sharing your wisdom and reminding us that we are many. 

[00:42:26] Paula Moreno: We are many, Claire, and thank you very much for choosing me. I feel [00:42:30] so blessed to have been chosen in this podcast that talk about us because it is us.

[00:42:36] Paula Moreno: And our first and fundamental assets is us talking, listening to each other. And try to do things, so I'm very grateful for this opportunity. 

[00:42:48] Claire Wathen: Thanks for listening to the Web of Us. The Web of Us is produced by Josie Colter and Ben Beheshty, design and scripting by Studio Goldstar , hosted by me, Claire Wathen, visiting fellow at the School [00:43:00] Center for Social.

[00:43:00] Claire Wathen: Entrepreneurship at the Said Business School University of Oxford. Join us next week for a conversation with the incredible Dr. Anne Makena, where she shares her journey and experience in co-creating the Africa Oxford Initiative, bridging Places and Industries. Welcome to the web.