Why trust starts with seeing the best in each other, with Premal Shah

"When people can vouch for people, friction from certain systems can disappear at scale," says the co-founder of Kiva and president of Branch, Premal Shah, on The Web of Us. In conversation with Claire Wathen, Premal takes us behind-the-scenes on how he created the world’s foremost microfinancing platform for underserved markets, shares how he made the leap from PayPal to social enterprise founder, and his favorite advice for living life like a hummingbird.

Transcript

00:00 Introduction to trust and crowdfunding
00:50 Meet Premal Shah: from PayPal to Kiva
04:51 The concept of trust
05:57 Advice for his younger self
10:04 How Kiva was born
14:11 Branch: AI-driven microfinancing
16:31 The role of social capital and trust
21:08 Insights from Microfinance
23:43 More on trust and technology
29:53 Final thoughts

Introduction to Trust and Crowdfunding

Premal Shah: It is really interesting how complete strangers can help really facilitate trust, which allows good things to spread much faster. 

Claire Wathen: Welcome to the web of us where we explore the visible and invisible connections that shape our world. I'm your host, Claire Wathen. Crowdfunding loans and financing. All generally operate on the assumption that you'll either one, pay it back, or two, provide a return on investment.

In other words, a social contract, or as today's guest puts it, trust, it's about vouching for what you're creating and ensuring it delivers value in return. But what is trust really, and why is it so crucial that it operates in healthy, abundant ways for networks and the people within them to thrive?

That's what I sat down to discuss with this week's guest. 

Meet Premal Shah: From PayPal to Kiva

Claire Wathen: Premal worked at PayPal in the very early days and as part of the PayPal Mafia then turned Social entrepreneur co-founding Kiva to provide over $1 [00:01:00] billion in crowdfunded, 0% interest loans across 75 countries. Co-founded and is now the CEO at branch, an AI driven micro financing app with 100 million installs across India and Africa, opening up financing to talented but underserved entrepreneurs.

In our conversation, we cover how to build a career that combines purpose and profit, how trust even between strangers can enable financial transactions and his advice for living life like a hummingbird on why trust. Starts with seeing the best in each other. Here's Premal Shah.

Well, welcome to the web of us Premal. It's so great to have you here on the show. 

Premal Shah: Thanks, Claire. I'm excited. 

Claire Wathen: I was thinking back to when we first met, um, you were at Kiva, um, and we met through my World School Foundation and have been in and out of different orbits in the social [00:02:00] change space in Silicon Valley in the tech spaces.

So excited to chat today and delve into your fascinating journey from. Being an early member of PayPal to co-founding Kiva, now the CEO of branch and how you've navigated these tech financial services, different platforms. 

Personal Insights and Fun Facts

Claire Wathen: But before we get into all of that, I'd love to start with you and I've got a couple light questions for you.

First, where do you call home? 

Premal Shah: Uh, San Francisco Bay Area. 

Claire Wathen: And do you feel at home in different parts of the globe? Where do you find yourself um, most comfortable? I. 

Premal Shah: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, you know, I also find myself at home in a small, uh, farming village outside of, uh, Baroda in Gira to India, which is, um, where my family's from and where I've spent just a lot of time.

Um, [00:03:00] and um, in many ways it's the opposite of. The Silicon Valley culture. Not only feels like home, but it feels like a, a, a place that has a lot of wisdom and, uh, an aspirational, uh, place. I'd love to spend more time in. Hmm. Yeah. 

Claire Wathen: Hmm. Beautiful. Um, there's many incredible things in your professional bio, but I'm curious, um, what's something that we wouldn't see there?

Something that, um, you enjoy doing with your time. Something that helps you ground, um, maybe a hobby. 

Premal Shah: Yeah, well, my, certainly my, my children, uh, ground me, um, uh, you know, some, some of the, um, uh, fun things I, I've really enjoyed. Uh, I was once on prices, right? Oh, this is probably for your American listeners.

And, um, I, if you Google best, come on down, ever. Um, you'll see on YouTube that I was crowd [00:04:00] surfed. Uh, the audience picked me up and sent me across the, yeah, it was, it was actually crazy. And it started trending on social media. And then Ellen wanted me on her show, and it was on the homepage at Yahoo and BBC.

And what was really interesting is it was very offbrand for Kiva because Kiva, you know, it's a nonprofit in the poverty alleviation space. And here I am, it was my bachelor party crowd surfing, um, to casual to contestant row. Yeah, contestant row of prices, right? So. Um, we had a PR person at Kiva who told me not to go on the Ellen show because it was just too confusing, too much, and I think that was the right call.

We had to tamper it, but now it's been several years and I'm revealing it here. 

Claire Wathen: Okay, well, on the podcast, here we are. Here we are. That's amazing. Um, not something that I would've guessed. You know, one thing that. 

The Concept of Trust and Social Spaces

Claire Wathen: We have been exploring, given the Oxford connections, is the role of social spaces and dinner [00:05:00] parties in particular.

And I'm curious if you find yourself at a dinner party, how do you introduce yourself? How do you show up? Um, I. Perhaps not trying to open a conversation about work. 

Premal Shah: Yeah. I love to understand, uh, what's alive for people, what people are really into. I tend to ask people about, you know, what are their passion, what are they passionate about?

And when you're curious, um, everything's interesting and you know, I think we're all kind of. Uh, looking to, to find other people, uh, who, uh, feel like they're really alive and kind of figure out kind of what's most enlivening and we're all probably kind of sensing for, is there something else that we can include in our life?

Mm-hmm. Um, and, and what are the steps? And so I think, you know, gatherings and dinner parties, um, beyond just work, which people often are passionate about, it's fun to just kind of ask them about, you know, their vocation, not just their vocation. 

Claire Wathen: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Advocation, not just their vocation. 

Advice for the Younger Self

Claire Wathen: If you could go back to, [00:06:00] say, being 15 or 20, is there some kind of advice that you would give yourself as you think about what was present for you and how you went about navigating?

Premal Shah: I was fortunate enough, a few years ago, um, to go through something called the Wellbeing Project, and there was a wisdom teacher who. Uh, introduced me to this phrase, notice, choose, and trust. And I would tell my younger self, I'm 49 now. I'd tell my younger self to just really sit with those three words.

Notice because there's power and pausing and. Just noticing what's going on and kind of what's more enlivening you have to make a choice. So choosing is obviously, um, sometimes in my life I'll like delay, delay, delay because, um, you know, I'm fret human and then the trust. Yeah, I'm, we're human. We're, we're all human here.

Uh, and, and then the trust piece is really important too. From [00:07:00] that, I would tell my younger self, it's just like to relax the nervous system a bit more. Mm. And trust that. I'm exactly where I need to be and that as long as I'm really noticing what's most enlivening and following that, the curiosity, the creativity, my sense of responsibility for things, um, I.

You know, I'll make my contribution. 

Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It'll play out. Yeah. 

Premal Shah: It'll play out. 

Claire Wathen: Yeah. And that it's always fascinating hearing how people have moved through different spaces and how it's very rarely what was expected or a linear sequence. We're very good at like looking back and having a tight narrative of, oh yes, this led to this and this and this, and this is why I'm here in this moment.

But so often it's um, when we are present and trusting where we are, that. Someone enters our path, a door is opened, something shifts, and then we find ourselves exactly, exactly where we're meant to be. 

Premal Shah: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I heard Elizabeth Gilbert, she wrote, uh, eat, pray, love. She was on [00:08:00] this Oprah special, and I just thought, uh, yeah, she, she talked about, um, she'd go out and give talks, uh, in audiences and talk about how writing was her passion.

And, and some of her audience would kind of relay back to her that that didn't make them feel good, because what if you don't know what your passion is? And then she came up with this concept of be comfortable being a hummingbird in life. Where you're kinda sipping from many flowers, and I think there's something really beautiful around.

Um, yeah, I don't know. For those, those listening who are maybe wandering, you know, not totally, uh, clear on are you where you should be kind of thing. Um, what I loved about the notion of a hummingbird. Is, there's an example in nature where you can trust just sipping from different things or kind of cross-pollinating or, or whatever the right, mm-hmm.

Metaphor. I don't know if it's from flowers or what the metaphor, but I really enjoyed that. Um, and there is a value to just dabbling as well. 

Claire Wathen: Hmm. [00:09:00]

Premal Shah: Mm-hmm. 

Claire Wathen: Yeah. I, I could definitely attest to that. I think when we, when we let go and allow. The flow to happen. Um, we find ourselves exactly where we're meant to be.

And yeah, it's easy to say, of course. It's harder to like actually let go as a human, 

Premal Shah: it is so hard. It is so hard. Um, and, um, uh, I, I, I think, you know, it's important for, um, for us to kind of, at least. Highlight this part of it because, uh, so often when you hear people's life stories, it is that linear thing.

Mm-hmm. Claire, that kind of makes, I know when I'd hear other people who kind of seem to have it all figured out. Yeah. I would almost feel bad. Well, must be nice. It's, it's so, it is a, it is a, a bit of a, you know, enjoy the wandering, um, and, and it has its purpose. 

Claire Wathen: Beautiful. Yeah. Well, speaking of wandering and journeys, yeah.

Um, would love [00:10:00] to. Go back to some of the evolutions that you've been through. 

The Journey of Kiva and Branch

Claire Wathen: I was really excited to talk with you, particularly 'cause crowdfunding and, and these tech platforms essentially rely on network effects and illustrate how the value of the platform increases. The more people participate, the more activity happens, the compound of impact that's possible.

Um, curious if you can take us back to early days of moving from PayPal. I think you took a sabbatical and or how did the co-founding of Kiva come about? Um, where did that idea center from? How, how was it to get that started? Yeah, 

Premal Shah: yeah, absolutely. So the first I would say kind of. Big moment, uh, really happened when I was quite young, uh, when I was five years old.

I was raised in Minnesota and my parents took me back to India for the first time, and that was so powerful to just get out of the suburbs of Minnesota and, and see more of the world and witness the love of my [00:11:00] grandparents who I got to, you know, spend time with. And, um, but also see poverty up close, you know, a level of destitution, um, uh, that.

Shame my moral sense and, um, was confusing to me at, at that, at that age. It certainly kind of bruised my heart. And I think, you know, I was left, um, in subsequent trips. You, you could, you know, you'd get out of the plane in Mumbai, uh, and see a kid your age knocking on the glass of your taxi cab begging for money.

And, you know, me coming from a middle class family in the United States, it just, if something felt, I, I, I didn't have these words, the birth lottery, but, you know, I think it became pretty clear to me. Just, just, um, how powerful it is on that, on the planet and, and, and so. You know, luckily in college I had a professor, like many of us who kind of came into social entrepreneurship.

We, I learned about Mohammad Eunice and his work in microfinance. Uh, this is the late nineties. Um, [00:12:00] and uh, and then I ended up working at PayPal. Um, in the early days and while I was at PayPal, it was on the back of my mind for five, six years, you know, could you PayPal, a microloan across wealth and geographic divides?

Um, so I got to go on a sabbatical, um, from PayPal and went to India and tried to prototype the idea and it, and I use the eBay website to prototype it. Just to maybe take a step back what Kiva is, it's a crowdfunding website for. Micro entrepreneurs, uh, around the planet. You can come in on the website and lend in $25 increments.

It's not a donation, it's a loan. Mm-hmm. And you can fund essentially bottoms up, market-based activities that help people in low income settings earn more money. I. And then you get paid back from those earnings and you can turn around and re land or right back in. Yeah. Or you can can put it right back in.

Yeah. [00:13:00] So this idea of market based approaches and what Mohamed uns had done combined with PayPal, I was like, gosh, we should see if eBay can do it. Put it up on the eBay website. It got taken down by the eBay lawyers. Uh, I, you know, just because it's illegal to use the eBay website for lending, but, but you know, it was so obvious that a website should exist.

We had been going about a year as volunteers, and I knew it wasn't sustainable. Um, we need to get people on healthcare like our volunteers. Like it just wasn't gonna work. Um, and there wasn't enough traffic coming to the website. And if you don't have traffic, then the whole thing falls. Yeah. Like it just doesn't work.

Claire Wathen: Yeah. 

Premal Shah: Um, and so really it was two things In October, 2006, it was the School Foundation's PBS Frontline World episode that put us on the map. And then that same month, Mohammad Eunice won the Noble Peace Prize for his work in Mi Pioneer and microfinance in Bangladesh, which overnight created kind of this sensation around microfinance.

Yeah. [00:14:00] Wow. Anyways. Kiva Kiva really started getting going. Now it's raised over $2 billion, um, in zero interest capital for social enterprises and micro entrepreneurs around the world. And, and then since starting Kiva back in 2005, Matt and I, we now Lead Branch, and Branch is a app-based microfinance bank that's popular across Africa and India.

We have a hundred million downloads and you can download our app and we use ai. And the data on the phone to essentially understand people's credit worthiness using the phone data. Mm-hmm. Um, when they don't have a credit score. And we've made over 40 million loans and you know, it's growing at 40,000 people a day and it's, it's quite popular.

And, and, and what's really interesting there is. Is, you know, if you can figure out new ways of assessing risk, when people, conventional methods, um, would say, oh, this person isn't bankable. There's, there's a lot of [00:15:00] opportunity. So that's kind of, you know, me in a nutshell. 

Claire Wathen: Yeah. Um, 

Premal Shah: from PayPal till now.

Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. And you've talked about risk as a key component here. Are there other. Elements that are core to the model of branch. 

Challenges and Innovations in Microfinance

Claire Wathen: And I'm curious also how trust comes into this over time, especially at scale. 

Premal Shah: So one of, one of the interesting things, um, that's changed since, you know, even Kiva started is when you type in, uh, best loan app or best Microloan app, uh, across Nigeria or Kenya or India.

A, a branch will just rank really high because there's, there's all these downloads and there's 1.5 million reviews and five star reviews. And so trust has shifted, um, similar to kind of how eBay, mm-hmm. You know, really got trust working on its marketplace from complete strangers, which is these, you know, online feedback systems.

Um, so, you know, complete strangers. In aggregate, providing a rating on something can help you understand, is it worth trusting? Mm-hmm. The other way trust is really spread is people will do a lot of their [00:16:00] research now in these markets, in local language on YouTube. Hmm. And they'll kind of in, in Gajarati, they'll kind of see what a YouTuber says you should do around X, Y, or Z, and where's the best value?

And so the way we're learning about things has just gone beyond our own village. And like the people that we trust and know of, obviously word of mouth is still like. Essential, but it's, it is really interesting how, um, you know, uh, complete strangers, uh, can help really facilitate trust. Mm-hmm. Um, which allows good things to spread much faster.

Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. And really taps into that loose tie as opposed to somebody that, you know, you have a personal connection with more of a, a strong bond from a network lens. Um, I think there's also really. Interesting space to explore here in the peer-to-peer model. And you're speaking now about, you know, referrals and perspectives on whether a platform is good to use and how other people have used it.

I'm curious how you think about [00:17:00] in all of these platforms, there's a democratization component and a sort of. Agency backbone almost. 

Premal Shah: Yeah. You know, we did a pilot right here in the Bay Area, uh, because even in the United States, uh, it, if there's, there's a lot of people who are still underserved by the banks.

Mm-hmm. And. It's almost like, um, the only way to get a loan is if you don't need a loan. Yeah. But if you want to start a small business, um, and you have no credit score, no cash flow, no co no, no, no collateral. It is very hard to get that, to get that loan to, to start like, you know, uh, a small business. And so, uh, we are doing this thing called social underwriting, which Kiva.

Basically started with a gentleman in 2011 named Victor, who took a, a set of classes around, uh, just kind of business education and then wanted to start a coffee shop in San Francisco. And because the [00:18:00] instructor in the coffee shop really thought that Victor had, you know, he'd do his homework, he'd show up on time.

He had that kind of entrepreneurial mm-hmm. Kind of thing. The instructor just vouched for him socially. And so Kiva crowdfunding is a zero interest loan to Victor. He, uh, finished the construction of a coffee shop, repaid that loan, took out a second loan to continue to build the build out his coffee shop, and that coffee shop was doing quite well.

When he repaid a second loan, we allowed Victor to vouch for someone in his church named cio. Who'd carry a vacuum cleaner around the sa um, around San Francisco on the, on the local Muni bus. Mm-hmm. To basically, she was a housekeeper. Mm-hmm. And she needed to, you know, kind of get around town to, uh, visit different, uh, clients.

She needed to buy a, a a, a van for $3,000 and she couldn't afford it. So Victor vouched for her. And because Victor had paid back two loans on Kiva, we allowed him to [00:19:00] vouch for her and then she could raise money. She raised money, she paid back her loan, and then she vouched for a woman named Rocio. Rocio basically sells at local flea markets, and there's this whole chain of people vouching for people.

Mm-hmm. And it's, it's, it's really neat where, um, if you can actually, uh, you know. Pay back and prove that you are credit worthy. Um, and then vouch for people who you believe in their character and they pay back. Um, then you can kind of spread this trust graph. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and really get, you know, kind of almost offered a first rung of credit on the credit ladder that then helps build credit scores and then allows banks to come in and actually provide larger loans.

Wow. And so we've just done a ton of experiments around. You know, the, the intersection of, um, well basically social lending. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And, and, and sometimes it doesn't work because, you know, look, it gets [00:20:00] awkward in default situations too. Yeah. So, you know, I, I think there's, there's, there's a lot of experimentation still to be done.

Mm-hmm. But, um, it is interesting when people can vouch for people. Mm-hmm. Um, how friction from certain systems can, can kind of, um. You know, really, uh, disappear at scale. 

Claire Wathen: Yeah. That's a really incredible example of social capital being used and trust transferring. And, um, in another episode with, um, Dr. Ann McKenna, who leads the Africa Oxford Initiative, she talks a lot about how if you can come in with a warm introduction, which I think we've all experienced in different ways, you know, you'll respond to something different depending on the source that it comes from and mm-hmm.

Um. That, that is universal in all kinds of ways. Whether we're talking about, you know, getting access into a certain network or getting invited into a certain closed event, or in this case, um, credit and, and the risk assessment. Um, [00:21:00] I would love to hear more about sort of what are the challenges and what are the tensions in.

Building this out, leveraging technology, and especially in the branch model, given the markets that you're in. 

Premal Shah: Yeah. 

The Role of Technology and AI

Premal Shah: One of the things, you know that. We have to be careful of as the world becomes, you know, everything becomes much more digitized is in the model that Mohammad Yunus pioneered, where you'd go out to a village and help organize a group of eight women.

I. To basically, you know, be this solidarity group and lend to them and they would pay back and they would get a larger loan if they paid back and really pioneering microfinance. One of the things that someone, like a loan officer going out to a rural village helping promote a group solidarity scheme is there's a lot of social capital that's formed.

Mm-hmm. Including when not to take a loan. Hmm. And you know, if you borrow too much and you don't actually spend [00:22:00] it the right way and invest it in something that actually creates a positive return on capital, especially one that exceeds your cost of capital. 'cause these interest rates, like these loans are interest bearing often, right?

Mm-hmm. So we have to, we like, one of the things I think that could get lost as everything becomes faster and frictionless. Yep. Is wisdom and the wisdom of of, you know, wisdom I think oftentimes is just knowing when to say no, you know, and when to stop and when to like not get more. And one of the things that I think we need to look out for is, um, I.

You know, a loan officer would visit your house and may end up sometimes having a conversation with you just, you know, as they're trying to understand your cash flows. Mm-hmm. Oh, you have three pigs. That means this kind of cash flow. Yep. You have, you know, seven trees in your orchard. That means this kind of thing.

You know, as they're estimating, they may end up being almost like a, a, your, your psychologist mm-hmm. And talking about business problems with you. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that exchange of information. [00:23:00] Um, you can't get that simply from an app and, you know, let's see what people are trying chat bots. Mm-hmm. You know, there's groups like Digital Green mm-hmm.

That are doing incredible work around helping farmers. Yeah. Really kind of get the information that they need. But, um, let's, let's see how wisdom is transmitted. Mm-hmm. And how portion control, how we preserve that when it, when it comes to things like credit access. Yeah. 

Claire Wathen: How would you describe the pace of this?

Environment, I mean, technology certainly advancing with, um, a spectrum of ai. And I'm curious, like, does it feel like things are speeding up? Are things more stable? How would, how would you describe the pace? 

Premal Shah: Yeah. You know, Charlie Munger, um, Warren Buffet's partner has this famous thing, which is, um, show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome.

Mm-hmm. And one of the things I'm afraid of with AI and technology and [00:24:00] capitalism is that it just creates a race condition. Yeah. You know, one company has to beat the other company. Yeah. Um, it's always a competition. One country has to, if we don't do it, China will do it. You know, it's, and it just, it's nonstop.

And again, maybe going back to the previous point around, you know. Wisdom. Um, when it comes to ai, and I'm not talking about the Terminator situation, technology is amoral, right? It's, it's, it's not immoral. It's amoral. It's up to us to give it, shape it, and make sure that it is for, for the common good and it's done responsibly and sometimes doing things responsibly, um, in a race condition.

Those, those incentives, um. Those are, those are a little hearted. So my, my hope, um, is, and where I'd like to see more attention is around, uh, kind of regulatory, uh, you kind of fortifying regulators, helping regulators keep up with innovation across all industries. And, and not to stymie the [00:25:00] best of what AI and mm-hmm, and, and tech can do, but just to help make sure that there's, uh, the right guardrails applied evenly so that as people are racing, um.

You know, some of the shortcuts that people might be prone to take. Mm-hmm. Um, especially when consumers are always educated. Yeah. Um, or people are prone, we're all prone to, you know, valuing the short term over the long term. Mm-hmm. You know, um, with those, with their very human foibles. I, I think, um, uh, that is something that's on my mind a lot.

Mm-hmm. 

Reflections on Trust and Social Capital

Claire Wathen: One question I am always curious about is the role. That someone specific has played in your journey. As we think about, you know, we're talking about big systems and big platforms and scale, um, but as you've navigated through different, you know, career points or big life challenges, things like that, um, can you think of an example of, of someone who unexpectedly opened a door or, um, [00:26:00] of, you know, helped you reconsider.

Where your path was heading along the way. 

Premal Shah: Yeah. Um, you know, I was fortunate to work with the early PayPal crew, which included Elon, you know, Musk and Peter Thiel, and some of these controversial folks, certainly in the social impact space. But, you know, I, Claire just maybe going back to the previous point mm-hmm.

And notice, choose and trust. Yeah. That last piece of trust. Um, one thing I'd love to. Plea for is where we try to see the best in each other. And, and that's part of trusting, you know, I feel like the, what I see online is there's so much at the core distrust of our fellow earthlings and, and it's this vicious cycle, um, that only degrades the level of trust where both sides are almost kind of, um.[00:27:00]

You know, kind of turning away mm-hmm. From the caricature of the other side. And I really think, um, I'm so interested in shared consensus, like where do we have shared consensus? Hmm. And those are subtle things, and there's a lot of nuance there. Maybe having the benefit of working with Elon and Peter Thiel, I can tell you that maybe just being in the foxhole building with him at PayPal, um, yeah, we might see sort of things differently.

Um, but I, I feel like. What is it? To know someone's full story? Mm-hmm. You can't help but fall in love with them. Yeah. I, I wish people could see, and I hold these two people up because they're, they're, they're big symbols in our society and culture right now. Yeah. And in fact, I feel like they're polarizing symbols and I, and I think they become reactive to being so polarizing.

Mm-hmm. And only becomes and itself further polarizing itself. And it feeds up, it feeds itself. Yeah. Exactly. And that's just, that's, I'm not interested in that. Mm-hmm. I, you know, what did Gandhi say? Unity. In our diversity will be the beauty and [00:28:00] test of our civilization. 

Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Premal Shah: Yeah, but I really think that's, I would love for us to point there.

Claire Wathen: Yeah. It's powerful and I've been thinking about this a lot with several of my friends coming from the Midwest, myself in the us, and being part of a very religious and conservative background, and now living, I. In San Francisco working globally, working across cultural context, just seeing how we may describe things in different ways.

We may be coming from a different place, but at the end of the day, so much is shared in the human experience of wanting safety. Possibility, you know, how we go about it, what that looks like, the, the tools, the practices, those are of course always up for debate, but I do really resonate with that mentality that it's easy to jump to and then run with.

Um, and that's certainly what a lot of I. Technology incentivizes in the, the tools that we have at our disposal. But, um, certainly something I'm [00:29:00] hoping to explore through this project and others is that we may be using different terms or sitting in different parts of the globe, but it's really all very connected and not quite so different after all.

Premal Shah: I think so, or where we are different, where can we find unity? Mm-hmm. Where can we find that shared consensus? Where can we, um, kind of. Give the most generous interpretation of, of what the other person might be doing and thinking, can we, can we basically stop this chain reaction that we're seeing right now?

You know? Mm-hmm. Um, because that, I don't think that ends well for us. 

Claire Wathen: Well, going back to thinking about what does good look like? What yeah world do we wanna be contributing towards, and how can we reverse engineer that? Um, yeah. You know, at this rate. What, where does this lead us? How does this really play out?

I think is worth, um, reflecting more on 

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Premal Shah: what's neat about, uh, I'm sure the folks who are listening to this, and certainly you, Claire, is we're all in the arena [00:30:00] trying to find our way. You know, I think profit and purpose are two very powerful drivers. Mm-hmm. So we're trying to, you know, we talked about, at the outset of the conversation, feel whole and serve the whole or mm-hmm.

Give back from a place of. You know, feeling good. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I think these dualities, like all of us are trying to sort through that. I will tell you what I'm most worried about, Claire, is if our information ecologies, like if we're all in different bubbles Yep. And getting things from d different realities, different places, and we're truly.

Kind of othering so many people and it hardens if those lines harden, that really degrades. Um, I mean, we have all this abundance. Mm-hmm. I can really see, I can feel it when I listen. Mm-hmm. I, I hear a lot of goodness across the board. 

Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. 

Premal Shah: And I wish that were more the vibe out there. Mm-hmm. Um, 

Claire Wathen: well, I think it's also up to us to create the vibe.

Be the vibe. Yeah. You know, to embody Yeah. Be the vibe, the, yeah. The concepts of abundance. And I think whether you're looking [00:31:00] at ecological networks or social networks and how, um, social capital is abundant by definition and trust is abundant and it's something that does, isn't depleted. It's more about how do we use it, how do we name it?

And that often it's just as powerful if not more powerful than other forms of capital. And so I think. Playing with that in different ways has been something that does come back to the shared, shared humanity and, and possibilities if we approach each other with curiosity and openness. Yeah. 

Premal Shah: What is it?

Um, kind of be more interested in growth than being Right. 

Claire Wathen: Mm. That's a good one to bring into my next dinner party. Uh, well, Prevo, thank you so much for joining today and just sharing how you've moved through these different spaces, the themes and areas that you're thinking about, and. Building towards. So thanks so much for your time.

Premal Shah: Yeah. Thanks for the work that you do, Claire. It was a [00:32:00] pleasure. 

Claire Wathen: Thanks for listening to the Web of Us. The Web of Us is produced by Josie Colter and Ben Beheshty at Studio Goldstar, hosted by me, Claire Wathen, visiting fellow at the Site Business School in Oxford. Welcome to the web.