The Web of Us
The Web of Us Podcast explores the visible and invisible connections that shape our world.
The Web of Us
Why labels are an invitation to break and remake, with Gina Chavez
"At our essence, we're more like the birds flying; we don't actually care about the boundaries that man has put on things," says genre-bending, Grammy-nominated recording artist Gina Chavez, on The Web of Us. In conversation with Claire Wathen, Gina shares how she’s transcended categorization as a bilingual artist, her journey building a multi-faceted career as an independent artist and philanthropist, and how music is a unifying force for good that speaks across divides.
To learn more, check out Gina’s:
00:18 Meet Gina Chavez
00:55 Gina's musical journey
02:00 Personal insights
07:25 Early musical influences
11:31 Navigating genres and industry
16:53 Challenges of being an independent artist
21:44 Music industry challenges
23:06 Connecting with fans
26:52 Music as a universal language
31:21 Navigating power dynamics
36:11 The future of music and community
39:59 Gina's in El Salvador and final thoughts
Gina Chavez: [00:00:00] Birds also sing, and they don't sing a three minute song with a chorus and a hook. And so the idea that music has to be something and a structure is kind of silly.
Claire Wathen: Welcome to The Web Of Us, where we explore the visible and invisible connections that shape our world. I'm your host, Claire Wathen. Today we're tuning into the rhythm of Gina Chavez, a Latin Grammy nominated and independent genre bending.
Recording artist. Her multiethnic music spans pop, Latin folk acoustic and even rap. You can check out her NPR Tiny Desk Performance to see what I mean. Gina's impact reaches far beyond the stage as president of the Texas Chapter of the Recording Academy, a cultural ambassador with US State Department and co-founder of a college fund supporting girls and young women in El Salvador.
Our conversation offers a glimpse into her fascinating world shared with such warmth and openness. Gina describes how she has navigated music industry and seen how [00:01:00] music can create authentic connection and agency as she puts it. Her approach is more about creating space than knowing the answer. We delve into how music can unite us across divides.
Why she believes the answers are within yourself. You just need to listen and how she. Uses her platform to make space for others to be themselves on breaking and remaking labels, genres and categories. Here's Gina Chavez.
Welcome, Gina. It's so great to have you on the web of us. I was thinking back to when we first met, do you remember that dinner party? I do. I do
Gina Chavez: remember the dinner party. That was a fun night.
Claire Wathen: We just kept rearranging our chairs and staying longer and it's great to work. We were in it.
Gina Chavez: I've, we were definitely in it. I feel like. I feel like we.
Claire Wathen: We like, close the place down a sign of a good dinner, you know, start as strangers and as [00:02:00] friends. Um, well I'm excited to dive into your world, um, as an award-winning artist and your songwriter, you know, connecting through artistry and also, um, how you've used your platform to champion important causes.
Before we dive into all that though, I'd love to first start with you. Um. Invite you to share a bit about yourself and first curious where you call home.
Gina Chavez: Yeah, so I'm actually, I'm sitting in my home studio in Austin, Texas, and I was born and raised here. So this has been my home my whole life. I am half Mexican, half Swiss German by yeas.
Um, I didn't really grow up speaking Spanish, but music. Um, I don't know. Through music, I feel like I was always drawn to kind of my Latina heritage and music has somehow kind of been that bridge for me as like when I sing in Spanish, it feels like I'm singing. The [00:03:00] language of my soul, if that makes sense.
Mm-hmm. Beautiful. Um, so it's, it's been both really beautiful and kind of hard because my, um, my brain doesn't know Spanish as my first language, you know? Mm-hmm. And so I'm, I'm constantly having to learn it. Mm-hmm. But I think. It's just an interesting thing that like when my soul, you know, like when I sing, it feels like I access a different part of myself.
So that's a really beautiful thing. And yeah, so I've, you know, I, I sing in English and Spanish. I tour all over the world. I've done a lot of work with the US State Department as a cultural ambassador and, um, yeah, just an independent artist out here creating and, um, hopefully creating spaces where people can experience the breadth of their emotions and, and meet each other.
Claire Wathen: And there's so much I'm excited to get into in your, your bio and your experience and journey. Um, what's something that we wouldn't see there that, um, might be something that you do for fun, something that's, um, a [00:04:00] weekend or in between, something that you enjoy doing?
Gina Chavez: Yeah. Um, it's funny, I've just started learning, did do.
Oh. And so it's not something I really like incorporate into my music yet. 'cause I'm. You know, I'm new at it, so it's not great yet, but I actually was just playing. Did do, because, um, there is. A little, I guess I don't even know, a, a gecko or a lizard that comes around every day like on my back patio. And it likes when I did redo it likes like when I play.
And so every time I see we, we named him Uao. And every time I see Uao, I'm like, ohua. Yeah. Oh, gets out.
Claire Wathen: That's very cute. I always love to ask. You know, if you could go back in time and, um, give your, your younger self some advice, um, maybe you're 10, you're 15. What's something that you would tell Gina then?
Gina Chavez: You know, something, [00:05:00] something I feel like I am, I've, I know here in my head, but I'm still understanding kind of the knowing in my entire being, and then I'm frustrated about. The world and like our structures and our institutions, um, a piece of knowledge that I feel like is so crucial to being human is just that the answers are inside of us.
Hmm. I've spent a lot of time seeking the answers outside of myself and have started to, you know, kind of deprogram a lot of the. A lot of the things that I thought were correct or I thought I should do, or how I should be, and I'm now connecting with like the knowing that I've always had, and there's just this part of me that's like, man, no, no one teaches [00:06:00] us that.
I, in my experience, I was not taught, you know, by my family structure, by my religion, by any of that, that, that the answers are all here. And that I just have to seek them here. Um, and I find that really, really frustrating. Mm-hmm. You know, really sad. I mean, right now I find it beautiful. It's a beautiful journey.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. But it's definitely some, a part of me that's like, man, you know, I. It makes sense that the world would say, Hey, you have to seek me for the answers. You know, it's like consumerism and capitalism and all of these structures are built upon you needing a middleman.
Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm.
Gina Chavez: And yet we don't.
We don't need a middleman. We need ourselves.
Claire Wathen: It's something that can apply to. Anyone, no matter what industry they're in, but also no matter what stage of career. And it's been fascinating on the season of the podcast to talk to people from all different industries and that [00:07:00] this idea of self-agency and empowerment, and we certainly see that across thinking about networks, whether they're in the natural world or how we organize ourselves or, um, there's so much more flow and fluidity than the structures.
Point us towards oftentimes. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. It's a beautiful way to, to quiet that. I'm curious when you started. Taking us back to that early part of your path in music and, um, you know, what drew you to that? How did it start? Did you always have this as an idea or, you know, an area that you were curious about?
Or did someone open that space for you? Or what sparked the beginning of what's become a, a beautiful and rich career in this industry?
Gina Chavez: Yeah, so I. I, you know, I always love to sing since I was a kid. And so, as the story goes, I, um, I, I [00:08:00] was in the, I grew up in the pre glee years before choir was cool. And so, you know, I, I always love to sing.
Um, I also love to draw and one year I couldn't, I think I was sixth grade, I couldn't get into art class 'cause of my schedule. And, um, my mom. Said, Hey Gina, you love to sing. Why don't you get into choir? And I was like, Ew, choir's for nerds, you know? And um, but I got into choir and I loved it and kind of immediately figured out.
I was like, oh, I'm actually good at this. Yeah, quite good at this. And, you know, and so I had a big, it was a big choir. It was like 40 kids. And one of the first things we had to do was sing Amazing Grace individually, like in front of the class. And that was where I. Quickly understood. I was like, oh, I, I'm good at this.
Like, compared to my peers, I'm actually really good at this. Whereas art, I was never, I was never good at art.
And so the hope was [00:09:00] there. The dream was there. I know, I really, I was the kid that would stay after way long, you know, I'd have to go like after school like three days a week just to like finish something. It's almost there. It's almost there. Yeah. It's tragic. Um, you know, so I think that was a. A blessing to kind of be young and discover something I was good at and that I loved to do.
And so I had really great public school choir program, shout out to public school. Um, and then, yeah, I, I got to college. I picked up a guitar at 18 and was kind of too lazy to learn other people's songs 'cause I didn't know how to like switch chords fast enough. So I was trying to learn a song and I was like, nah.
This has too many chords. I'll just write a two chord song and it'll be great. So I kind of just immediately started writing songs. Um, actually I cut, I should say I cut my teeth on, um, like a lot of praise and worship songs. Mm-hmm. I was very, I was very into my church, um, very Catholic, cradle Catholic.
And [00:10:00] so like, I would lead praise and worship and mm-hmm. There's kind of like easy chords you can play that are really pretty, I call them happy Christian. It's true. You know, so I, I. I cut my teeth there, to be honest. And then I think maybe because those were so simple, I just was like, oh, I'll just write a two or three chord song.
It'll be great. Um, yeah, so that's kind of my beginning and you know, I, I know I'm from Austin. I didn't necessarily grow up really, uh, in the depth of the Austin music scene. Mm-hmm. Um, I mean, I picked up a guitar when I was in college, and then it wasn't till later that I started really getting into it.
Um. I wasn't really into the people that, you know, are upheld by the kind of Austin lore. So, I mean, I love Willie Nelson as a human and you know, as a musician, but it's, it's not really my style. Mm-hmm. And so I think also that has CR allowed me to. Write music that is kind of different. Yeah. Because I [00:11:00] grew up around all this quote, quote like great music that I was like, nah.
Mm-hmm. No, it's just not my thing. You know? Get it, but also not your jam. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. So I, I think maybe that. Subconsciously was part of, you know, I started mixing languages. Mm-hmm. And just 'cause I was like, well, this'll be cool. Or I went to Argentina and then I'd bring back, you know, rhythms from there and just kind of mold it all together.
Um, so yeah, that's, that's kind of how I got my start. I was just curious to ask you, how do you think about
Claire Wathen: lanes of genres and styles and, you know, there's. Ethnic, multi-ethnic folk pop acoustic. Yeah. You know, how do you navigate that? Do you like having categories that you connect into? Does that get in the way?
Gina Chavez: Yeah, it's interesting. Um, I mean, I, I think a lot of artists of any stripe, most of us don't like being confined. Mm-hmm. You know, in, in a lot of [00:12:00] senses. It kind of, it's like talking about boundaries, you know, on a map to a bird. Like, they don't make any sense. You're just like, you know, birds don't care. Oh, yeah.
No. If they're, I'm, they're crossing, crossing into another state, you know? And I think, you know, birds also sing and they don't sing a three, you know, a three minute song and with a chorus and a hook. Right? And so the idea that music has to be something in a structure is kind of silly. Um. And that's something I'm kind of learning with, with something like the did do, which is an, you know, an Aboriginal instrument.
Mm-hmm. That on some level is like one note, but then it has these overtones and there's, so it's, you know, it's kind of weird to play an instrument that's essentially like one note. Hmm. Um, but it's not about music in a kind of a popular sense. It's about music as, um. Something that connects us to [00:13:00] the earth.
You know, something that, it's like a deeper connection, right? Um. So I think genres, I get why we have them, you know? Um, obviously as humans, we love categories. Mm-hmm. Sure do. Our brain, our brain can't hold everything all at once. Mm-hmm. And so we equate, you know, uh, a circle with the sun, with an apple, you know?
Mm-hmm. For a reason. Mm-hmm. Um, and. So I, I get it. I'm also the president of the Texas Chapter of the Recording Academy. And so, especially when you're talking about genres, say with something like the Grammys, right? Mm-hmm. So I'm a Latin Grammy nominee in the pop rock category. Yes. Mm-hmm. And so it's like I had to.
Submit my music in a certain lane in order to be able to qualify and be nominated in a category. Um, so I get it, like it makes sense. Um, and at the same time, I think it's also really limiting and my music is [00:14:00] very hard to categorize. Mm-hmm. I don't fit lanes nicely. Mm-hmm. And I think on a fan level, they love that.
Like my fans love it. Yeah. They love that they can come to a show and it's 90 minutes and we're gonna go all the places and it's, you know. I ask people afterwards, so like, I'm like, how would you categorize my music? And they're like, I don't. They're just like, it was great. It's so great. Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah. I'm gonna tell all my friends, you know, and. You know, and so I think most of us have a playlist. You know, when we throw on a playlist in the car or whatever, we don't actually care. No. If Beyonce is right next to Chris, Stapleton is right next to Macklemore is Right. Whatever. Right. Yeah. It doesn't matter.
And again, I think that's more of like, yeah, we're, we're at our essence, we're more like the birds flying and we don't actually care about mm-hmm. The boundaries that man has put on things. Mm-hmm. Exactly. So it's so, it's a tension for sure. It's a tension point.
Claire Wathen: Do you see in the future genres [00:15:00] shifting significantly?
I mean, not all the genres that are today were in place several decades ago even. Um, do you think that's continually relevant as music evolves?
Gina Chavez: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, you know, it kind of reminds me of, you know, even something like Austin, right? There's all kinds of views on, oh, old Austin was better and yada, yada, yada.
Mm-hmm. Like, you know, but it's, change is inevitable. Change is something that. You know, happens. And so there's, I don't know, like yes, genres are gonna continue to evolve and change. That's kind of the nature of the beast. A lot of it is driven by popular music. Mm-hmm. You know, and so even something like in the Latin categories, they had like alternative with like rap for a long time.
They had like, it was like all the alternative, you know, things then like sub genres. Second two. Yeah. And it's, and then you, and then suddenly you've got like bad bunny up against, you know, some like rock artist, and you're like, okay, this is silly. Right. [00:16:00] Don't even know. Yeah. You know, and so then they'll, they'll like parse it out because it makes more sense, you know, to actually parse them out.
Because now, you know, rap genre is its own thing. I think, again, being. When I'm in those conversations with something like the recording academy mm-hmm. We get very granular. Mm-hmm. About like, what is the name of it, what are the things, you know, and kind of trying to do our best to make it right for the time.
Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm.
Gina Chavez: And at the same time, in the back of my mind, there's also that, you know, independent artist in me that's like, this is all kind of a bunch of hooey and it's made up. I know it doesn't matter what
Claire Wathen: industry
Gina Chavez: you're in,
Claire Wathen: like the way that we, over time. Uh, like humans are just so good at categories and subcategories and frameworks and you know, like putting things into this lane and then that leads to this thing and it's helpful to have constraints and also how do you honor the multifaceted nature of each other and of the work and the artistry.
And how have you navigated, I mean, coming in as you started writing [00:17:00] your own music, producing it, getting it, um, out into the mainstream. How did you find the music industry and how is it to navigate? Space. And how has that changed for you over time?
Gina Chavez: You know, it's interesting, I, you know, so I'm from Austin, Texas.
I'm an independent artist and because I play bilingual music and I'm in a, I'm in a place that doesn't have a lot of industry, I. Austin is really well known for, you know, we're kind of like the self-proclaimed live music capital of the world, and we have a ton of live music. We have a ton of, you know, songwriters and people putting out their own projects, but we're not an industry town in a way that like LA and Nashville and New York and even Miami.
Have a, have the industry. Mm-hmm. That's where the industry is. And yes, we have some like little blips here and there, but for the most part, like there's not managers, there's not labels, there's not, or major labels I should say. Um, [00:18:00] it's, there's not necessarily people just out there like, Hey, I am gonna put you in my new movie.
Like it's, you know, that's not happening here in Austin for better or for worse. And so it's actually makes it a really beautiful music community because we support each other. But part of it is that. As I've grown up in, in the Austin version of the industry and then gone out to places like LA and stuff, and I'll meet like an 18-year-old that, you know, has like a pub deal and has sink and license all these things and like they're, I'm like.
I am more than twice your age and I have no idea like what you're talking about or you know, it's like, yeah. I get out there and I'm like, wow, I don't know anything. Like I've been doing this forever. Mm-hmm. And I, I don't, there's so many things that I'm not connected to or that I don't know. But it's interesting because at this point in my life mm-hmm.
And the world, I realize now that. There's a lot of freedom in where I'm at in terms of I'm the independent of independence, [00:19:00] like I do everything myself. Um, I. And up until a couple years ago, like I was working with a booking agent, and so it's not that I want to be working by myself, but part of it is that I've, in my experience in trying to find somebody, say like a manager that really understands the breadth of what I do, there aren't really lanes for somebody who's a bilingual artist from the United States.
Or even just a bilingual artist at all.
Claire Wathen: Interesting.
Gina Chavez: So it's kind of like what you're talking about where you say like the lanes where we're talking about like when you go on to Spotify and you're looking at like, you know, the pop playlist, whatever the country hits or the, you know, like you're looking at a lane of music.
Right. And there are industries built on those lanes. And so it's, it's as somebody who doesn't fit any of those lanes, it's hard to find personnel who understands. Yeah. Who weave between my, yeah. Yeah. Who can weave. Yes. [00:20:00] Yeah.
Claire Wathen: Some jargon I picked up lately.
Gina Chavez: I know. Uh, we're gonna put a positive spin on that one, but, um, you know, that's, yeah.
I think that's part of it, is that. I would work with people and then I would end up basically paying to educate them on some other aspect of my career. And then I'm like, well, I'll just do it myself. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so that's, and then that's frustrating 'cause so, so in a lot of ways it's like I'm independent, not necessarily because I want to be, but because there's a lack of representation.
And this is what happens when you have a lack of representation at the, the, the tables. Right. Making the names for the categories, making the, you know that. Anyway, and so there's, I think I spent a lot of my career. Aiming for these, you know, trying to like fit these lanes, not fitting the lanes, feeling ashamed for not fitting the lanes.
And then now I'm stepping back and realizing, oh, I've actually built like a really interesting [00:21:00] career that is unlike any other artist that I know. And so it's kind of that, what is it? Aim for the moon land on the stars thing where stars then the moon. Yeah. You know where. Where I realized, I'm like, oh, I was aiming for these things and didn't necessarily get them, but what I've landed on is actually really interesting and beautiful, and I also feel like I've been saved from a lot of industry bs.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because I haven't had the attention of a lot of industry people, and I'm now, after hearing a lot of stories from friends and also just being where I'm at, I'm like, oh. I'm actually so grateful for that. Um, because the industry, to be, to be honest, it's a tough industry. Yeah, it is very hard.
It's hard, especially now it's like, you know, when we started to have. Things like streaming services. It was like, oh my God, we don't need a middleman to [00:22:00] get our music out there. And that's great. Hundreds, if not thousands of songs uploaded every day. I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy. The volume, the
Claire Wathen: sheer volume.
Yeah, the
Gina Chavez: so, so then it's just like the internet, right? It's like the internet's great, but now that ev, you know, it's been decades that everybody can access it. Well, now we're dealing with a deluge of information and we're like, who are my trusted sources? Right, exactly. Same. It's the signal versus noise.
Yeah. It's that same issue with music where it's like. Breaking through has been the, the, the challenge for decades now.
Claire Wathen: Yeah. And I'm also hearing a lot of like hidden infrastructure, like not knowing how to navigate the maze. And it's not even clear who are the nodes, who are the doors, how do you, like, who do you even need to talk to to get into the room where they're making the category.
You know, like all that's very invisible and sounds like you kinda have to go through the brokers and, um. Unfortunately sounds very familiar to other industries where they then build infrastructure for like, oh, I will help you navigate. [00:23:00] I can be your guide. And then over time, as you've been building your community and network the following.
Um, I'm curious, like how do you think about the relationships with your fans and followers and, um, are there people that have, um, emerged in that broader sphere or how do you think about the Yeah, the relationships there?
Gina Chavez: Yeah. Um, you know, like I said, I, I love, I love people. Um, and I really, I'm so glad that I'm driven in that way.
Like I'm more Dr. I'm actually more driven by connection than I am by music. Hmm. Um, and so in some way I am more of a. I'm like, not so much of a musician's musician. Like there's some people that are like, I can't not play guitar every day. You know? 'cause they just have to like, mm-hmm. And on many levels, I wish I were that person, but, but like, I'm not, I'm, I'm more driven [00:24:00] by connection.
Um, and. So I think, I don't know, I, I tend to see my fans as friends, you know, like after, after the show, people often are kind of like, oh my God. You know, like they'll be, um, I'm, I'm fan, I'm, I'm starstruck, or I'm fangirling, or whatever. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I'll just like, I just wanna break the barrier down and I'm like, what's your name?
Like, where are you from? Tell me about yourself. You know, especially, or if it's a young person, I'm like, what are you into, you know, just something to kind of like break, break the barriers down. 'cause we're all just, we're all just out there trying to figure it out, you know? All just humans. Yeah. We're all just humans.
Yeah. We're doing all we can day by day. Yeah. You know, so I think I, I feel like I am, I just try to be authentically me, whether I'm on a stage or, you know, here on a podcast. Mm-hmm. Or standing at the merch table, like I just wanna. I wanna have a true connection because I feel like that helps us be who we are.
Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Gina Chavez: And I, I [00:25:00] think my music is more an extension of that than I am an extension of my music, if that makes sense. Like my music comes from that same place. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, Hey, I hope this, you know, I wrote this song as a way to try to say we're all, we're all light and we're meant to shine.
I hope this, you know, I hope you get that message too. Let's go and then
Claire Wathen: mm-hmm.
Gina Chavez: Start the song
Claire Wathen: and it's that authenticity that, I mean, it. It comes through in how you show up in all of these different spaces and on your socials and, um, in a conference space, in a, you know, at a dinner. Dinner. Yeah. I just think there's, there's something really powerful the more you can, as an individual, tune in and ground and be clear on both your purpose but also, um, the light that you have to bring to the world.
And that the more you can step into that, the more that also creates. You know, permission and an [00:26:00] invitation really to others to do the same. And that, that alone is so powerful. Um, less about the categories of industry or the title we have or the type of institution we're connected to, or these things that I think we often get a bit distracted by, or, you know, we're incentivized by in our capitalistic structures to uphold.
Mm-hmm. Um,
Gina Chavez: yeah. Yeah, I like that word. Permission. Uh. Permission to be yourself.
Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's so much. I'd also love to dig into with the, the work you've done with your platform. You've, um, co-founded a college fund, um, Nina Ariba. That fund provides scholarships to girls in nil Salvador.
As you mentioned, you're a cultural ambassador for the US State Department, um, really blending these different spheres and, and worlds and. I'm curious how you think about moving between places and types of audiences and [00:27:00] some you connect with one time, some you're connecting with very regularly. How do you see music as an avenue to move in and out of those different spaces?
Gina Chavez: Yeah. You know, it's funny. I feel like we all have access to music. Like we literally are in music. You know, we, we have a heartbeat, you know, we. We each have a, a unique voice that nobody else has. Like, these are beautiful things that truly, I think the reason we resonate with music is because we are resonant.
Like that's, that's what we are, that's who we are. Um, but also to recognize that, you know, in this lifetime in. The type of world that we live in to have the gift of music, um, is a really beautiful thing that I'm only just now I think, emptying myself of me enough to, to start to understand. I'm like, oh, this is why I am here is to like channel.[00:28:00]
Um, and so I think, you know, part of it you said like, how do I think about. These different spaces that I'm in. And I think I, I don't really think about it. I, it's more that I naturally can kind of show up in a certain capacity because it makes sense, right? So it's like, and you know, and I think that's just that authenticity.
But for instance, like if I'm an ambassador with the US State Department, you know. I've traveled enough that I wanna learn. I'm not there to change social norms. I'm there to really like engender the connections that have already been made on the ground. 'cause like embassies basically have local partners they work with and so I, I'll do things like have conversations with queer and transgender folks in.
Guatemala where the rates of femicide are the highest in the world. Um, and we've had like really deep connections and conversations around that. But when we were outside of those [00:29:00] walls, I'm not necessarily like waving my queer flag and, and talking about those things. So it's like, obviously if it makes sense for the, the community.
I feel able to kind of more mm-hmm. Fully, like show all of myself, um, or even like I was invited to go celebrate Pride in Mongolia, um, a couple years ago. Amazing. And that's like, as you know, an experience I never thought would happen. Mm-hmm. Like so, so beautiful to be invited specifically because I'm queer, to go be a representative for the queer community.
Um, and yet I've been to places like Saudi Arabia where. You know, they weren't, no one told me, don't say you're gay. But like, I wasn't about to do that because my purpose on the ground there was really to create and foster relationships. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so that's my main goal. Yeah. Is like, how do I show up in a way that's.
Kind of can create and foster relationships as I've, you know, deepened my own understanding of myself. My work is really to be [00:30:00] an instrument. Um, and actually to go further, there's this really great quote, I think it's by Rumi, um, that says, I am a whole and the flute of God and the idea that. I'm not even the flute.
I'm a passage by which the air of God goes through the flute. So it's like, I'm like the, the, you know, the hole is like, there's nothing. Right? But if your flute is stuffed full of junk mm-hmm. Then nothing can move through that. Mm-hmm. And you don't get to hear, you don't get to experience the sound of the beyond.
Mm-hmm. And so I think. You know, or like a singing bowl, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. If you put a singing bowl that you got, you know, in a beautiful place like Nepal, and then you start throwing keys and junk in it, well, guess what? It's not gonna sing anymore. But it's not because it can't, it's because it's full of a bunch of stuff that doesn't really belong there.
And so I feel like that's really my work is like, I've always been the singing bowl. I've always been, you [00:31:00] know, the hole in the flute of God, but I've had to, I'm, I'm in the. Uncovering so that, so that I can allow. Mm-hmm. If that makes sense. Mm-hmm.
Claire Wathen: Absolutely. And it's a beautiful metaphor, you know, music as a way to build relationships, create spaces where people feel belonging and feel safe and feel connected.
There's also a theme in, in your music and your activism around power and agency, and we, in several of the conversations on the web of us, we've. Explored the sort of power dynamics, relational power, positional power. You know, it shows up anytime there are multiple people involved, um, and of course plays out at, at bigger scales, um, in networks.
But I'm really curious about how, how you see power dynamics. What are the power dynamics you navigate regularly? You know how. Hmm. How do you see music as a way [00:32:00] to, um, name and acknowledge power that we each have?
Gina Chavez: Yeah, that's a, that's a intense question. I guess to harken back to what I was saying earlier about my advice to my 15-year-old self, the idea that it's all here.
You know, it's like we don't need permission or a seat at the table or a voice from. Somebody that we respect or love or fear, you know, to give us power, even though that's what our world tells us, right? Um, you don't mean anything unless you have this many Spotify listeners. You don't mean anything. Like you're not worthy.
You don't have influence if you like. Everything in our world tells us that stuff, and yet it's, it's just a, you know, it's a lie. Um, and I think women in particular, we are. So incredibly powerful that so many of our structures, you [00:33:00] know, going back as far as humankind has existed, our structures have been built specifically to take power from women to disempower and control under the guise of protecting us, right?
Mm-hmm. And we're seeing that play out on. An incredibly large scale right now. At the same time, I think that our understanding of power is very, comes from a very, because it's been built by patriarchy, it's very kind of. Toxic masculinity path. Like, that's how, even me, it's like when I think of power, I think of like, ah, like a big, like straw, you know?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We're afraid to sit with our pain, and that's why the world looks like it does, because we are enact our pain. Mm-hmm. If you can't heal what you don't feel, and we are mm-hmm. So afraid to feel, and so I think really like [00:34:00] the, the power that I'm trying to. Again, there's a lot of deprogramming and a lot of kind of, you know, not even reprogramming.
It's more like transcending by descending back into myself. It's remembering. It's remembering, yeah. Who we act, who I actually am, and I think there's so much of the sacred feminine that we have a lot to learn from. That is kind of, what is it? You know? For instance, like power. Power can just be listening.
Power can be like having a voice to make a space. It doesn't have to look like this is the way it
Claire Wathen: is. It's so much more than that. Simple question. You're. You're inviting something different. You are detached from the present status quo. You are inviting in curiosity, you are opening up space and adding in oxygen where there may not have been because it's just kinda like, we're on the track and we're [00:35:00] gonna da, da da, da da.
Gina Chavez: So I, I don't know. I think I'm learning how to do that. You know? It's, what does it mean to, yeah, it's, it's more of a creating a, creating space. Mm-hmm. Rather than knowing the answer. Mm-hmm.
Claire Wathen: Yeah.
Gina Chavez: Yeah. Opening up actually curious, you like every question they, every, every question you ask, you say, I'm curious.
I think curiosity is like the best tool. Like how do we just, how can we step back and be curious? I. About anything, how I'm feeling in the moment, how my mom reacted to me, how, you know, you threw me a curve ball question that I wasn't thinking about, whatever. Mm-hmm. Like whatever the thing is. Mm-hmm. Just be like, Hmm.
Oh, I'm noticing that Gina's very frustrated right now. What's that about? You know, or, you know, whatever it is. Like, it's so, it's so. That's a lot of like the being with myself and like meditative practices. Mm-hmm. And like practicing, like zooming out and just being like, oh look, [00:36:00] Gina's really concerned about this thing.
And she's in a mental spiral. Yeah.
Claire Wathen: And we may have seen this before. What is this pattern? Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, yeah. Don't relate to that at all. Yeah. Looking forward, what's your hope for. Connection for spaces where we can come together. How art and music, you know, how does that look in the future?
Gina Chavez: Girl, I wish I knew.
Um, you know, I do think there's a return. I feel like there's a desire to return to, um, kind of more intimate spaces. Mm-hmm. Um, you know. In a lot of ways, I feel like it's like the, the deluge of information, the deluge of, you know, like our social media, like all the stuff, I feel like it's so oversaturated and even thinking about, you know, huge things like Coachella or like whatever.
It's like there's so much stuff that's just like, it's, it's too big. [00:37:00] It's
Claire Wathen: too much.
Gina Chavez: Yeah. And I, and I think we're craving these intimate. Spaces, like when I think about a show, like there's a part of me that's like, I would actually rather just be in a coffee shop with 20 people.
Claire Wathen: When you said living room earlier people, I was thinking that is such a beautiful idea to be in.
Yeah. A warm, cozy, small place. Yeah. You know, you don't need a thousand. Thousands and thousands and all of that. Yeah, yeah.
Gina Chavez: You know, and, and also at the same time, I mean, I will say that like stepping on a stage where, you know, you're in a 500,000 cap room and you have an amazing sound system. Like there's nothing like it.
It's amazing. Okay. So we
Claire Wathen: want, we want both. Yeah. So
Gina Chavez: it's, I mean, it's both, but I feel us wanting more of those kind of mm-hmm. Intimate connections mm-hmm. On every level. Mm-hmm. A community garden, a book club, like whatever the thing is. And I also, you know, if we knew what to build, we would've built it.
And so I think we're just gonna have to do that. Mm-hmm. Um, [00:38:00]
Claire Wathen: we, yeah, we do know what we wanna build. We, we just, it, it does come back to creating space to imagine and that we're really already living in someone else's imagination. You know, everything around us was built at some point, so.
Gina Chavez: Yeah. Well, and I, what would like to see, well, in a similar way, I, you know, I think that we're seeing the destruction of our systems, our society.
There's, there's a lot of ways in which they have not worked.
Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm.
Gina Chavez: For certain groups of people ever.
Claire Wathen: Mm-hmm.
Gina Chavez: And so now we're like, wait, you know, for those of us who have been privileged to have experienced, you know, uh, to, to benefit from certain systems that now you suddenly see a repeal on, you're like, whoa, wait a second.
Well, what do you mean? You know? Mm-hmm. And then there's a whole other group of people that's like, yeah, welcome, welcome. This is actually never, this has never worked. And it's always been biased and awful and [00:39:00] violent in a lot of ways. Yeah. Um, and so there's a part of me that's like, how do you build something unless the other thing is crumbled?
And yet. The destruction of the thing that you loved and that you like was organized your life around you actually now get the chance to redo mm-hmm. Things. Mm-hmm. Because it, it's gone, you know? And so I think in a lot of ways, like we would never, we don't change unless we have to. I mean, no one's gonna be like, yeah, I'm gonna like, you know.
I'm going to leave my car somewhere and hope someone steals it. Go into a new uncomfortable space. Yeah. Right. No one's gonna do that. And yet the same time, I think that's how we're gonna learn is we're, we're in it, y'all, we are watching this stuff destruct before our very eyes. And we, we have to start building what we want now.
And that means trying and failing and, and doing it
Claire Wathen: together. You know, you know, do it together. Exactly. Don't need to do this alone. Um, exactly. Well, [00:40:00] Gina, thank you so much for sharing your journey and your reflections, and there's so many gems here. I'm excited to share them with our audience. And I'm curious, where can people find you, your music?
Yeah, one the best places.
Gina Chavez: You know, I'm pretty much on all the things, so wherever people get music or you know, hop onto the interwebs unit, chavas.com. Um, I also do wanna mention, I know you had mentioned the Nina Harba College Fund. Um mm-hmm. We have, it's been an ongoing project for so many years. My wife and I did.
Mission work in El Salvador. So if people are interested in learning more, um, we, you know, we essentially support these young women to going to school in a country where, you know, most of the time higher education is not accessible to most people, but if it is, it's pretty much to, um, to boys and men and, um, these young women, they're not only changing, um, their own lives, but you know, as studies shows through the un, like.[00:41:00]
They're, they're uplifting entire communities. So I mean, as far as, if you wanna learn more, you can go to gina chas.com and there's a tab that says college fund. Essentially we operate as like a funding arm for a program of the uca, which is the University of Ro Medica. It's like the top rated, um, private university in El Salvador.
And. There's a program that they run and we provide housing, tuition, uh, transportation, food. It's like every, it's all expenses paid. Wow. So that these young women can be able to drop in and have support on the ground. So yeah, it's great. That's
Claire Wathen: incredible work and we'll be sure to link to it and, and direct people there.
Well, Gina, thanks for joining and um, more to come. Claire, thanks so much. Thanks for listening to the Web of Us. The Web of Us is produced by Josie Colter and Ben Beheshty at Studio Goldstar, hosted by me, Claire Wathen, visiting fellow at the Saïd Business School in Oxford. Welcome to the [00:42:00] web.